Issue 5: This working mom's approach to kid's activities is freeing
Jean Hsu is the VP of Engineering at Productable
I’ve been so fortunate to work closely with Jean the past three years. She has been an endless source of wisdom, camaraderie, and support, as I navigated my first early stage startup job, my first pregnancy, early motherhood, and career transitions. It’s rare to find people that you feel like you just “know” but Jean and I definitely clicked. And yet Jean and I have only met up in person twice in the past few years!
She was another person I thought of immediately to interview for Working Mom. Jean brings a sense of zen to everything that I aspire to. Her mentorship and friendship helped me through some rough patches of early motherhood and I’m incredibly grateful for her.
This post is a little different - while I want to make sure most posts on Working Mom are stories of working moms and their daily lives, not advice you didn’t necessarily ask for, Jean’s advice has been hugely helpful for me navigating motherhood and my career. So I’ve asked her some questions that are more advice-y than usual posts. But of course, take it or leave it!
Occupation: VP of Engineering at Productable
Children: Jackson (7) and Alina (10)
Fur children: None yet but wishes for a dog
Location: Greater San Francisco area
Tell us about your family
I live with my husband Naveed and kids Alina and Jackson in Berkeley. The kids split their time with us and their dad, who also lives nearby in Berkeley. We have week-on-week-off shared custody, so our weeks are either kid weeks or no-kid weeks, which creates a somewhat interesting dynamic for our social and personal lives! We enjoy cooking together, especially what the kids call “grand breakfast,” usually some combination of eggs, something carby and decadent, and smoothies.
How would you describe your work day?
I work from home for a startup with coworkers across the United States, so my meetings are typically in the mornings (a mix of team meetings spread throughout the week, as well as 1:1s). I live in a fairly residential neighborhood, so lunch is usually leftovers or making something at home. After lunch, I often have another meeting or two, and then some focus time in the afternoon. I really appreciate the team’s adherence to “core hours” that allow east coast and west coast folks to have some flexibility around work and non-work stuff throughout the week!
Over the past decade, you’ve made time to write and build a business, interwoven with full-time jobs. What inspired you to do all that and how do you make it work?
I’ve been in startups ever since 2010 (after a brief stint at Google post-graduation). Caught up in the excitement of a Palo Alto startup, I started publishing reflections, insights, and things I was learning online. I was pleasantly surprised to see that there was a ton of interest in what I had to say.
After becoming a parent in 2013, though, I find that writing has been my self-care. It’s the time I carve out for myself and my space for creative self-expression. I’m still figuring out how to balance keeping writing as my fun, creative space, while also building it up as a viable income stream!
As for businesses, I left Medium in early 2017 after over 5 years there (an eternity in startup years — though I did take two maternity leaves while I worked there which broke it up a bit). To be honest, I was a bit burnt out and couldn’t imagine taking another full-time job. I was drawn to coaching both because it seemed similar to the parts of my management role that I enjoyed the most, and also because of the flexibility it offered.
I built up a coaching business that was mostly individual coaching for engineering leaders, and then started building out Co Leadership with a cofounder. We spent over 2 years running engineering leadership workshops and courses, but wound down the business once the pandemic started.
I find that every few years, I get an itch to do something really different. Recently, I’ve been reflecting that perhaps that manifests itself in career-related changes because I’d like the rest of my life to remain slightly more stable (kids, home, partnership)! I think part of me really likes the challenge of navigating change and diving into something completely new. It does require some confidence that the skills I acquire along the way will be applicable (even if my resume doesn’t look super conventional), but in general I’ve found that to be true.
I could see myself ebbing and flowing in and out of self-employment and working at tech companies for some time. But in general I try not to plan too many years in advance!
In your experience coaching and mentoring, what are some of the most common challenges you hear about working women facing as they transition to motherhood?
Oof, so many, and so many I’ve faced myself. I feel like society is not built for dual working parents.
Our generation of women often are told they can do it all, resulting in them trying to live up to the same home standards as their own (often stay-at-home) moms, as well as doing it all at work — which does not set them up for success. I’ve long joked with friends that there should be a workshop around How to Do Less at Home (for High-Achieving Women).
Another area I’ve personally struggled with, and I hear a lot about, is creating the space to put my needs first. Sacrificial motherhood is so glorified, and what’s good for the kids vs what’s good for mom is often seen as at odds. But I honestly believe that my kids will be better off if they see me engaging in my own interests and activities, spending time with friends, having personal projects — and perhaps even they might take that as their default if they ever become parents.
Another challenge I find is that often times space is so scarce, that when there is a spare afternoon or day off from work, moms (and parents in general) put so much pressure on themselves to use it productively. Often, I find I need to let go of that urge to be productive, and just let myself do whatever — sometimes that’s taking a spacious nap, or just binging a new Netflix show. If I try not to resist those needs, I actually get through them more quickly and get to a place where I want to write or create. I shared more about how I think about creating more space and the hierarchy of needs in this series: Space to do Whatever.
What are the routines and practices that keep your family running smoothly?
My husband Naveed and I have a reasonably good system for household admin! We have a weekly meeting, with a recurring agenda. We rotate through some larger topics so they get discussed about once a month, such as prioritizing house projects and reviewing Fair Play cards (more below). We track it all on Asana (modern household management!). There are definitely times when tasks linger for a few months…but sometimes we then take that as a sign to deprioritize them if we have too much on our plates.
Fair Play cards include a comprehensive list of household management tasks, ranging from something as obvious as “dishes” to more obscure but necessary things like “household supplies” which includes keeping track of when we need to restock on toilet paper, dishwasher detergent, toothpaste, etc. The intention of the deck is to more explicitly split up all household items, so that one person (usually a woman) is not burdened with the mental load of carrying it all in their head. It also reduces the stereotypical trope of husbands saying “Of course I’ll help, just tell me what to do!” which puts the onus of household project management on the woman, which is a job entirely of itself.
It all works relatively well, considering that current day society and workplace productivity standards were really designed with men working 40 hours a week with a stay-at-home wife taking care of all childcare and home stuff in mind…
Working from home with a flexible schedule helps a lot — I used to lose 3 hours a day commuting to and from SF, and evenings were a chaotic frenzy.
What’s your favorite thing about parenting these ages?
Oh gosh, 7 and 10 is so fun. I think it’s a golden period — we’re past the toddler tantrums and diapers and constant supervision, and not quite yet into the teenage phase (which I am optimistic about!) The kids want to have “family time” and do stuff together, and getting out and about is so much easier when they can buckle themselves in!
Also, both kids are voracious readers, which really opens up possibilities. Sometimes we’ll have weekend afternoons where they are both off somewhere in the house reading some library books quietly for an hour or so. They also play together very imaginatively, with one person narrating what’s happening and providing options to the other person (is this what Dungeons and Dragons is like??)
It’s fun to see them becoming their own people and watching their personalities develop.
What challenges are you facing right now?
I think there are two schools of thought to handling kids’ activities. One is that the parents’ job is to sign kids up for everything and expose them to as much as possible (soccer, music lessons, gymnastics, dance), and even to really force them to stick with it because they wouldn’t do it on their own. The other is to be guided by the kids’ natural interests.
I have fallen pretty much into the second camp, just due to not having the energy to force anyone to do anything (practice piano, chauffeur people around to activities daily). For example, Alina asked a few times about ukulele lessons, so I found a teacher. After a few months, they weren’t really practicing much, so we stopped ukulele lessons. But they have enough of a foundation that they occasionally pick it up and play a few songs. When they expressed interest in learning Mandarin a few times, we serendipitously met a neighbor who had just moved in who is a mandarin teacher, so we started classes with a friend. But I pretty much don’t make them do any activities they don’t want to do, because I just don’t have the energy, and I feel like anything parenting-related can be taken to an extreme that is very stressful and anxiety-inducing.
The one exception is swimming lessons, which is more of a safety issue than an extracurricular interest issue.
But sometimes I hear people say things like “I wish my parents had made me do ______” and I wonder what the right balance is! Parenting is just such a winging-it endeavor. Kids think their parents know everything, but honestly, I know nothing! I just try to do what makes sense to me, and what seems right in each situation.
Tell us the secret to your zen-like approach to work and parenting!
I honestly think getting enough sleep and not drinking coffee reduced my anxiety substantially and makes me much more zen. When I don’t get enough sleep, or when I drink coffee, I have a lot of intrusive thoughts, like I will get fixated on things that really don’t matter in the grand scheme of things. And rationally I know that, but my mind will still spin on them, especially in the middle of the night.
A few years ago, after Naveed and I listened to this Peter Attia podcast with Matthew Walker on sleep, we decided to take sleep a lot more seriously. For a year, I directed any “personal development” energy towards just making sure I was in bed for 8-9 hours a night (9 hours in bed maps to about 8 hours of sleep for me). My hypothesis was that investing in that sleep foundation would result in better downstream effects than I could imagine or make goals for — better sleep leads to better decision making, being more in tune with what I want, what’s not working for me, less anxiety, etc. It felt a bit indulgent and lazy, but that’s also a result of our hustle culture that glorifies being tired and busy all the time! I still prioritize sleep, and find that when I’m not exhausted, I actually want to do other things like write or work on projects and don’t need to find ways to trick myself into doing them.
It’s also a good reminder that honestly, we’re all so insignificant. We’re so much less in control of our lives and the world that we want to think we are. Not to say that you shouldn’t try to do the things you want, work on things you enjoy, etc. but so much is just chance and circumstances as well. Reminding myself of that helps me focus on the things that are in my immediate control, instead of worrying about things that aren’t.
I know you’re a big foodie - we have that in common! How does your family approach meals? What does dinner look like at your house?
On the weeks the kids are with us, Naveed and I split up pickups and dinner responsibilities by day. So he’ll handle school pickup and dinner a few days a week, and I will the other days. Mealtime can be tedious and can suck the joy out of foodies when it feels like a never-ending chore.
I shared a little bit about our general approach to food here, but we try to keep it simple. Sometimes we’ll have a nice full meal with a bunch of sides, but we’ll often also just have leftovers, or Trader Joe’s gyoza, or in times of desperation, “snacky dinner” which consists of cheese, crackers, fruit, and whatever other snack-like items we can forage from the fridge or freezer. Hilariously, basically every time we have this, one of the kids will go, “Snacky dinner! This is the best dinner ever!!”
Our air fryer was a game-changer for us though! We often get the Trader Joe’s salmon and pop it in to broil for 12 minutes, and have it with pasta or sushi rice and seaweed for DIY hand rolls, which is a super easy meal that feels also really nice (and presentable when we have guests).
When the kids aren’t here, it’s a little bit more fend for yourself! Which is a nice break. We’ll often get poke bowls or make exactly what we’d like to eat. Often for me that’s noodle soup or ramen and a runny egg!
What are your personal non-negotiables for self-care?
I’m pretty far on the introvert side of the spectrum, so having time to myself is important. I carve out half a day on the weekends when the kids are at their dads to write and publish on Tech and Tea, and I’ve found when I miss that time for whatever reason, my mood starts to sour. It’s a nice bi-weekly reset of having some spacious time to myself.
I’d like to expand this time to weekly or having more regular (and possibly shorter) times that are scheduled. For people without kids, this probably sounds so scarce, but honestly with kids, it’s surprising how you can go weeks, months, years, without time to yourself.
In general, having some space (physical space, spacious time, financial space) is really important to me. Without that buffer, it’s easy to feel overwhelmed! This could look very different for different situations, but maybe it’s finding 20 minutes on the weekend to close a door and be by yourself. Or maybe it’s having a $50/$100/more use-it-or-lose-it stipend to spend on whatever you want each month. There needs to be space to experiment and to fail and not be productive.
I also love baths! I’ve claimed the upstairs claw foot tub for myself, and often have bubble baths and read on my kindle.
Rapid fire questions
Go to recipe: the broiled salmon with sushi rice and seaweed (and cut up avocado and cucumbers) - also in this post
Must have for your office: After a few run-ins with RSI, I find the Kinesis Advantage2 keyboard so helpful for alleviating wrist pain, even if it does look extremely goofy! I do end up working on my laptop on the sofa or in random places quite often though.
Favorite kids toy: The kids are at an age where we can do fun things that are actually fun for grownups. We’ve been enjoying playing Codenames! It’s very different from playing with all grownups though, as you really have to be careful giving clues and put yourself in a kid’s shoes to think about what connections they might be aware of!
Best parenting hack: When the kids were little and it was hard to do clothing changes, I used to just change them into the next day’s clothes to sleep in. Because honestly, kids’ clothes are all pretty soft and don’t get that wrinkly anyways, and why subject yourself to TWO clothing changes when you could just do one?
What are you reading/watching/listening to right now?
Reading: I started The Uncanny Valley but found it a bit hard to get through. I guess it feels just like everyday tech startup life, which is maybe too close to home (similar to watching Silicon Valley)!
Watching: Naveed and I are re-watching Friday Night Lights! I’m also a few episodes into Season 5 of Love is Blind…
Listening: I love Christine Koh’s podcast Edit Your Life. I’m not so much an audio/video person, especially without a commute, but I especially appreciate her food-related episodes. I love knowing how people meal prep and what they daily meal situation looks like!
If you had to sum up a few takeaways for moms navigating their careers and motherhood, what would those be?
Yikes, this is a big question! One thing that comes to mind is that work doesn’t have to be everything, and it’s ok to have seasons of life where work just fills a few needs. I feel like in our society and the tech industry, the youthful obsession with work is celebrated so much, and moms carry that into their motherhood eras. Lean In also contributes to that feeling of needing to do the most.
It’s ok to have periods where work is backseat to other things, and that doesn’t mean you’re not a smart or driven person. It just means you’ve been intentional about the role work plays in your life.
That being said, if you are partnered, it’s important to have frequent and explicit conversations about how you deal with these changes together, so one person is not stuck shouldering a balance they don’t want to for a long period of time.
Also, I’m not a super comparative person, but I’ve caught myself comparing my career, accomplishments, hobbies, etc. with people who don’t have kids and feeling bad about myself, that I wasn’t as prolific in my business or creative hobbies. But motherhood is a different game altogether, so really try not to compare!
Thanks for reading this issue of Working Mom! Let me know if you have any specific topics you want to read more about.
Hope you have a little time to yourself this Sunday!
Bhavika